[Request] Does the money add up?
Wednesday, 12 Mar 2025
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![[Request] Does the money add up?](https://meta.cdns.win/en/2025/03/Request-Does-the-money-add-up-860x627.webp)
I’m reminded of the time (1976?) when the Procrastinators Society of America demanded that the Whitechapel Bell Foundry accept the Liberty Bell as flawed goods and refund the purchase price. To which the Whitechapel Bell Foundry replied that they will be happy to refund the bell if returned in its original packaging.
After a quick Google search it looks like France lent us $13,000,000,000 back then and since it’s been ~250 years you get the formula “13 billion(1+x/100)^250 =150 trillion”. Solving for x gives us ~3.81. This means France has been charging us ~3.81% interest which is lower than the current long term debt rate of 4.53%, but this loan is much longer than todays “long term loans” so the interest rate checks out. In conclusion it’s surprisingly adds up. (Edit: this is all very simplified because realistically you would need the inflation rates for the last 250 years and probably use some integrals but I’m not doing allat(Edit #2: I’m not sure how accurate the $13 bil number is but ima just roll w it))
First, not to ruin the joke, but most of the links I’m reading say that it was a loan and that we paid it back. Still, it’s a funny question as a joke, so in keeping with the vibe of the times, lets say fuck facts.
Before I launch in, one confession: my calculations do not adjust for inflation. I have no idea how one might do that over a span of 250 years. Seems like it would be tricky to do, but if someone else has an idea, please share it!
Looks like they gave us about 2,000,000 back in the day. (ive seen this figure and 1.5MM Livre).
At 5% interest (which is probably high for this sort of international loan), [a compound interest calculator](https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php) I’m using says that $2MM at 5% annually would result in us owing about $43 billion bucks. A much more favorable 1% interest rate brings that down considerably to about $14 million bucks (!!).
Either way, $150T sounds to be on the high side. I’d be curious if there’s a calculation behind that figure.
So France essentially paid for the usa’s independence, gave them their symbol of freedom (statue of liberty), and americans have the *audacity* to treat the French the way they do?
Edit: Uh oh I’ve upset the goalpost-moving americans.
Edit2: americans just *love* using the goal posts in the next field, huh?
Something’s fishy here. I’ve watched this speech and there was absolutely no mention of that loan in it. I think someone’s trolling, but I could be mistaken
First, some people are using inflation as a part of their calculations and they should not.
If I borrow $500K for a house at 5%, I owe only $500K and the interest.
So on a 30 year mortgage that comes to $966,278.92 total of which interest is $466,278.92. The bank cannot adjust for inflation on that initial amount.
So, on to the question at hand.
In 1780 the US owed France $2 million.
If we paid nothing on the amount and owed at 5%, that amount would come to $310,747,946,787.68.
$310.7B is nowhere close to the $150T they might be claiming.
However, that loan was paid back in full with the help of James Swan, an American banker. He purchased the debt and resold the debt for a profit back in 1795.
By contrast, the US loaned a lot of money to France for WW1 and France never repaid that debt. It got to the point the US just forgave the debt to reduce tensions between France and the US..
As for WW2, France made the last payment on that debt in 2006.
In conclusion, that entire question of the US owing money to France is a load of BS.
USA is taking back the Panama Canal, so it’s possible that France could say something similar about the Statue of Liberty.
Even though it’s highly unlikely because it was a gift, but it would be such a power move if France mentions the Statue of Liberty. 💪
Not a math question but since the government at the time was a monarchy, and then was overthrown and became a different form a government, would the hypothetical loan still stand?
They have the same chance I have with the 100 dollar private issued bond I have from the masonic lodge of Chicago from 1923. That states clearly it has 7% annual compound interest in the face until paid.
None
But we can wish
According to Wikipedia, French aid in the Revolutionary War amounted to 1.3 billion livres. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War
According to this source, 1 livre in 1780 is worth about 7.25 EUR in 2015. https://www.historicalstatistics.org/Currencyconverter.html
This would make it equivalent to 9.4 billion EUR at 2015 prices.
According to Eurostat (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/ei_cphi_m/default/table?lang=en&category=euroind.ei_cp), French inflation since 2015 is about 23.45%, which means that, **adjusted for inflation, the value of French aid in the American Revolutionary War is about 11.64 billion EUR**.
The official US position on this, since 1794, is that both the loans and treaty of alliance (1778?) were made with the King of France, not the French people so the obligations did not survive the French revolution. None the less, in 1795, a private banker assumed, securitized and sold the debt with the agreement of the French.
Hence the very complex math gives the result of zero.
Sources:
[https://history.state.gov/milestones/1784-1800/loans](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1784-1800/loans)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Alliance_(1778)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Alliance_(1778))
I see. And the World War 1 deduction line goes here.
Followed by the even larger Liberation from the Nazis World War 2 credit.
Congrats, USA! You’re getting a refund!
Why would the debt be valid it was given by the french monarchy not the french republic. These things are two different governments aren’t they? Why would we owe the republic the money when the monarchy is the one that paid.
The Govt that gave US funding doesn’t exist anymore. It was replaced rather violently. Therefore, the people who could recoup it are dead. No payments.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1784-1800/loans#:~:text=During%20the%20Revolution%2C%20the%20French,from%20Dutch%20bankers%20in%201782.
Take it out of elmo’s ass. We’ll hand him over if he doesn’t comply. If he can’t cover it, we’ll send the rest of the tard brigade – cuckerburger, beeeeez0s, oracle guy, sirgay & the man.. whatever the fuck their names are… baldy “developers, developers, developers, developers!” ball man and the entirety of the walnut family.
There are lots of white gravestones of dead Americans in France where we helped pay them back by freeing their whole country. Probably spent more than that to do it too.
Bro im like so not a trump supporter in the slightest but it would be so funny for the US’s official response to be “ok but it has to go to the king of france cuz he gave us the money” lol. Yup hopefully France waits a few years to see if we get our shit together before they start pulling those cards. If we dont then more power to them!
If the U.S. isn’t even with France after 2 world wars, Vietnam, west African interventions AND Louisiana purchases then we might just have to declare war /s
To which French government should we pay? Considering they have ~10 revolutions since then and cannot decide what government is best.
Math is wrong, but no one takes France seriously. Not the Britan, not the Danish, not Germany *cough* and most of all not the United States. France has always been the Clown of Europe.
Watch Franklin with Micheal Douglas – it’s all about Franklin’s work in securing the financing from France. We would have lost without it and still be under British rule.