Thoughts on Harriet Tubman?

lol the most controversial part of this is going to be after the game is released and people are casually saying things like “Fuck you Harriet Tubman, you settled my land and starved my people, you’re as evil as Gandhi”

I, um, hmm.

I’m pretty shocked.

I’m kinda biased in my opinion here, as a black American, I suppose.

To be as positive as possible – it’s a **very** bold stroke, that really speaks to the “Leaders don’t necessarily need to have been Heads of State” thing they’re going for, here. The model looks *fantastic*. The vegetation movement bonus sounds very strong. The spy ability is very on-brand. As a Marylander, I get to go “ayyyy, that’s us!”.

I won’t lie, however, that while I know that Civ has a celebratory and rosy approach to human history (which I enjoy!), it produces a very *confusing* feeling in me to consider seeing such a treasured hero of, y’know, black American history be slotted in, potentially, to, y’know, 4X-genre activity. I know you can totally play peaceful of your own accord when using her (and I know she served during the Civil War), but … … … IDK.

I simultaneously fully trust the team at Firaxis to treat her as respectfully as possible, as an inclusion, while also having a better understanding of why some Indigenous tribes in the past have been like “No, we would rather you didn’t include us in the game”.

Not saying it’s a rational feeling, and I’m sure others feel differently / have their own opinion, but it does make me a *little* uncomfortable in a way I can’t describe very well.

I also think it’s a *bit of a* *reach*, in a way that other unusual leaders typically aren’t … (edit, to expand on what I mean here – Gilgabro is literally mythic, Catherine de Medici was arguably a de **facto** head of state for several periods, and Gandhi was pivotal to the existence of modern, independent India) …

I’m very, very surprised she’s not an Army Commander, and that they didn’t maybe go with Frederick Douglas… … …

IDK, I’m just having a lot of thoughts all at once, here. At the very least, kudos to the team for venturing outside the “safe presidents” box. It is very gutsy, imo, and I respect the choice. 😐

Cool choice, certainly a very influential figure, but personally I would have preferred Frederick Douglass as the next non-president American leader. He seems like the natural next pick after Franklin, at least from my perspective as a non-American.

I think it seems wierd because Tubman doesnt feel like she fits the polital influence of most other leaders I guess? Fredrick douglas, MLK, Malcom X, Susan B Anthony feel like they would be more appropriate I think.

Would have preferred Fredrick Douglass, but yeah, she’ll be an interesting choice

Does this mean that the railroads are only going to exist metaphorically in civ 7?

I firmly believe all leaders should still be major figures who directly changed the system of their country. Tubman is a badass but she’s too boots on the ground for leader status. I don’t think you need to hold the highest office in the land, but at least actually be directly be the leader of a change in the country. If Tubman was the leader of the abolition movement absolutely.

Basically she is the perfect example of a great person, but not a leader. Have a category that’s like reformers or activists and she can have a cool bonus like reducing loyalty on enemy cities when you capture a civillian unit. Bonus points if its taking one from the Aztec (if you know you know).

My initial reaction is a scale problem.

Tubman was absolutely a great person and leader, but she worked with like… 10 people at a time tops and then doing that over and over for years while working far under a deeply oppressive system. Which to be clear is not me denegrating her achievements, just that it doesn’t fit the vibe for a civ leader.

I feel like if you were doing american civil war the rpg, having tubman as a legendary hero makes sense. But civ is pretty locked in to the idea of nation states as the lowest scale then going up to empires. Like folks have said, joan d’arc is also below that scale and no less legendary for it.

Still it should be pointed out that in American history, the only people who meet this “scale” criteria are white europeans because of the systemic racism and if you want to have a black representative (which is an extremely important part of american history) you do have to reach below the line so to speak.

In all… idk i really don’t care that much. I’m sure if i wanted to i could go full conspiracy theorist and say this is a sign of the downfall of civ but idfk we’ve also had a leader who literally was not a real man (gilgamesh) and the series kept going just fine (even if every time i’ve started near him he’s sent a swarm of donkey carts to take my shit and leave me for dead). Point is i haven’t seen much of the game so i’m not jumping to any conclusions.

She does sound like they’ll get funky with it if she’s a faction so yeah.

I’m not a fan of them adding non leaders as leaders. If they wanted to add her as a great person that would be totally fine.

I would also like to see a slave revolt choice as a modern era civ (e.g. Haiti). I feel like you’d have a stronger sense of abolitionism if your country were transitioning from a slave economy to a free one, whereas starting with Tubman from a blank canvas doesn’t really paint the same picture.

I mean I would like to be able to pick from a few leaders for each civilization and I like the idea of being able to choose her as the leader of america in a game. The issue mainly with this system of choosing your leader separately is that people are just going to use leaders to min max instead of picking ones that fit the civilization in question. We’re all arguing over the leaders right now however I have a sinking feeling that 90% of the leaders that aren’t op after launch are just going to be thrown in the bin by most players.

All Culture war bs is annoying.

Getting Nuked by Harriet Tubman will be fuckin hilarious

My personal fave for a US leader would have been MLK

I’m from Delaware, and I’ve known the entire time playing these games that Fraxis is from Maryland, but this is the first time where I was like “oh okay, That’s a homer pick.”

Obviously, being from the area I remember hearing about her story all the time in school. I would probably expect someone like Martin Luther King Jr, but he’s not from Maryland.

I liked her when she was underground. Now she’s too mainstream.

Cool and based.

Though I admit it feels odd that Tubman, Ben Franklin, Machiavelli, and Confucius are playable leaders despite not being heads of state

Kinda a weird choice, but better than Ibn Battuta. I think Confucius, Machiavelli, Ben Franklin and Ghandi can be qualified as leader due to their political impact over an entire nation or civilization. Tubman isn’t as influential as those above, but at least she involved in politics. Battuta has nothing to do with a leader besides his short career of being a judge.